Fruitcake MIDI Forum Treasury

[Shadow Blade]

(I was about to post, but then several more people already posted, so sorry if I say something that has already been said )

I know this is a long post like the others here, but please read it, because I think it will have some significance later in this topic.

Anyway:

Here's something new: Churches aren't perfect. LOL DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!

First of all: The Law. It wasn't done away. I want someone to quote a verse word-for-word and tell my were it is that says that the Law was done away. As far as I see it, Jesus did say "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" (I believe that's Mathew 5:17). Did you hear that? Not destroy, but fulfill. OMG THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THE LAW IS STILL ACTIVE??? Even Paul preached about the "Old Testament". Also: fulfill usually means "Get to the goal", or something of the like. Not destruction. And the New Covenant is that the LAW would be written on our hearts (thus, like a conscience). Think about it.

Bonus: The only two "Man Made" pages in the Bible are the ones that say "The Old Testament" and "The New Testament". They were never intended to be in there.

Second: I can't see why everyone thinks that the Bible's Law will change depending on what the country around you thinks. If that was the case, then we wouldn't even need the Bible's Law (ie: The Ten Commandments and such), and we would only need to worry about the Country's Law and/or what's "Acceptable"? That's silly. I think God made a Law, and it should be kept. Also that verse "till Heaven and Earth Pass, one jot, or one tittle will not pass from the Law" (can't remember the verse number atm). A 'jot" and a "tittle" were like, periods and commas in the ancient Hebrew/Greek I think. So what this means is not even the smallest part of the Law will ever be changed in God's eyes.

(now please, I'm not trying to blast any of you guys, nor am I mad or anything as it may sound)

And if you look at the Bible as a whole and never changing, there are no holes in it's "religion". So it's not the Christian religion that ever contradicts itself, but the Church's doctrine. (of course, you could say that if something has a different doctrine, than it would be considered a different religion )

That's why my family doesn't actually go to "Church", but instead fellowships with people who believe close to the way we do. And if we find something in the Bible that contradicts what we believe, we'll do what few others do and change to fit it.

Also: As far as after life and Hell and such, there's always the idea that we (meaning, my family) have been studying, where hell is just the Atheist's version of death, where you're just eliminated. Cause I find an eternity of "pain" (or what we could call pain) and such hard to believe. And the idea that in hell, you have the chance to come back or something just gives it the idea that it doesn't really matter if you go to hell or not, you could just come back later, which I think anyone would do. And Heaven is a place so beautiful/fun/good-feeling/etc that you would never even think about going back and it make worldly pleasures seem like falling in an Elephant's poop on a wet, rainy night with both hands tied behind your back after just seeing your best friend die.


Finally:
Like someone said (can't remember who), you should balance "good" works", and "good faith", but never rely on faith or "grace" alone. And just believing in God/Jesus won't get you to Heaven, after all, even the Satanists believe in him. And never rely on good works alone either, because a man could have good morals and done good all his life and still go to "Hell".


One final note: Having "pointless sex" is not the same as playing "pointless video games". Sex was made for having children, video games were made for fun/pleasure, and sex feels good so that people would want to do it and have kids (which is essential for survival). And about premarital sex vs abuse, if the two people who followed rules and didn't have premarital sex follow the rules (or really, LAWS) about not abusing your kids, I think we'd all be fine as far as that goes.

And also, just because you don't believe a religion doesnt make it not true .
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[JK9000]

[JK9000]

[Yoshgunn]

I see what you're getting at with the first part of your post, but I think it's worth mentioning that not all contraceptives can protect against disease. It even says that, like, right on the box and/or commercial.

Oh and thx, Shadow Blade. You brought up a few points I had intended to post but slipped my mind. If you don't mind my asking, what religion do you formally call you and your family? Is it some branch of Christianity, or something like that? I'm not sure what I am, I think I'm just like... Catholic? Ya.
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IM THE DUDE PLAYIN THE DUDE DISGUISED AS ANOTHER DUDE

I FORGOT HOW I WAS GONNA END THIS??!

"Good Lord, child get it right - I did not "show you my ass", I mooned you. There is a very important legal difference." - Chzrm3

[Shadow Blade]

[Izzhov]

[JK9000]

I dunno! Religions may not lend themselves to such compromise. For example, it's pretty well written down in certain denomonations of Christianity that it's every Christian's duty to spread the Gospel. They have too! If they don't, they're bad Christians. Even beyond that, if they really believe that those who don't have faith will end up in Hell, it'd be pretty damn irresponsible if they didn't try to convert you. Dude, they don't want you to go to Hell!

Me, I don't believe you need to be Christian to be moral or to get into Heaven, but such viewpoints are at least worth considering.

On the issue of human sacrifice, I don't agree. I cannot, and will not give even tacit consent to any sort of murder/suicide/whatever you want to call it. For on thing, it's illegal, and historically religious laws don't trump national/state laws, as in the case of Mormon polygamy. (not that I have a problem with polygamy, really! i think it's a pretty dumb law) And for another thing, it's just against my personal code of ethics to allow such things. I don't think life is something anyone has a right to decide whether it goes on or not, not even the person themselves. Mostly, 'cuz, there's just so many people who fight for thier lives with everything they've got and still die, and you just go a throw yours away? Dude, what the hell? It's like saying life isn't all the special and you can just give it up whenever you feel like it.

[Damian]

[Shadow Blade]

Than you fail to understand what Religion is supposed to be. And on the whole "less wars with no religion" thing, actually, think about the Nazis that we were talking about. If everyone just made up their own rules, than we would be in a constant state of conflict (I'm pretty sure this is called an Anarchy). If everyone believed the same religion (which is the Christian goal), than there would be, like, no wars, because everyone would be following (or should be anyway) the same morals and stuff. All of the laws in the Bible make perfect since: Love your parents, don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't fill people's heads with BS (ie: lies), don't lust after something someone else has etc etc. These are all for our benefit.

But I don't mean to be barking at anybody here. See, I don't believe in trying to convert people even after they have just completely refused a bazillion times (and I have tried this in the past and now regret it <.<). This is when you dust off your shirt and move on.
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[Izzhov]

[Damian]

[Izzhov]

[The Dragon]

He's saying that God should not necessarily tell us how to think or how we should define our morals.

Which is a good point, as God gave man free will, as opposed to the idea that angels have no free will at all.
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Some things are best read out of context.

[chzrm3]

“What are you saying, Upsi? Can racists be good people too? Well… it depends. In this society, obviously not – the facts about racial equality are now widely known and racism is nothing but the purest intellectual dishonesty. But in a society like Nazi Germany, where racism is instilled in the brain by so many means… to me, the answer is unquestionably yes. That isn't to say that racism is right – but that good people can erroneously and naively believe racism to be right, and act accordingly.”

That whole thing that you said was really interesting, but this specifically – I gotta say, I agree! What you said makes a ton of sense, and I’ve never actually thought about it before, but yeah...

...it reminds me of a story I heard once from someone who’d come out of a concentration camp. She was in there with her mom, and one day while they were doing work her mom fell. One of the guards went over and started beating her, and the girl screamed at him “stop! that’s my mother! how would you feel if someone was beating your mother?” apparently when she said that, the guy stopped and was just kind of shocked, and he didn’t touch either of them again.

So could this guy have been an objectively good person, who suddenly realized that good wasn’t beating the poor woman? Did an epiphany strike him as he became aware of the true humanity of the people he had been constantly told were inhuman? Or was he always aware of the fact that all the propaganda was bull$#@%, and it just took a physical manifestation of that to make him accept it? I guess we’ll never know the answers, cause the guy in question’s probably dead, but damn.

‘Does one posses free will in the afterlife, though? Heaven and Hell are both constructs based on the concept of "eternity", something which doesn't exist in the real world. If Heaven is to be a place of eternal paradise, it must be impossible for anyone to ever commit an act that would detract from said paradise. And the only way to assure that is to remove free will from the equation.

And similar logic could be extended to Hell. If Hell's to be a place of eternal torment, no-one can go around trying to make it a better place. One might even argue that Hell is where those who have conclusively proven themselves to be beyond redemption go, so it's a moot point whether or not the possess such freedom of will.’

Huh, interesting points on both fronts. Yeah, I guess if people can try to make Hell better or Heaven worse, it suggests that there are fluctuating levels of Heaven and Hell, which kind of goes against what they’re about. However, I don’t know about being unable to commit a sin in Heaven. I mean, doesn’t that go against free will?

‘Not really! The concept of God is already one that defies logical conventions by definition. If he's supposedly omnipotent, it wouldn't be impossible for him to be selectively omnipresent, since uh, nothing's impossible for him. It doesn't make any sense what-so-ever, but you can easily chalk that up to God existing in ways beyond human comprehension.’

O_o That’s true, you can’t exactly expect logic from a being that doesn’t care about it.

‘I would argue that the shooter did not love God, as he went ahead and commited the cardinal sin of murder. Saying you love God, even believing that you love God, does not equate true faith. He was a false devotee.’

In his eyes it was as justifiable as someone shooting a man who’s about to murder his entire family – but I agree, even if he believed he loved God and was doing the right thing it definitely doesn’t count for jack. In the context of Yosh’s argument though, he claimed that someone who truly loves God can at the very least go to purgatory, and if ‘truly loving’ = ‘knowing what’s right and acting on it’, we cycle back to the confusing moral issue of how to deal with people who were raised in environments and settings where their own morality was twisted.

‘The whole point about Angels is that they don't possess free will, I thought. Free Will was a privilage of humans as God's favored creatures. Or something.’

Huh wow, really? So doesn’t that mean that Lucifer didn’t have a choice as far as being evil, it was always planned for him? Dude, that’s kinda lame.

‘Um, I'm not comfortable with the reference to the entirely unproven rumor that AIDs began with monkey sex there, but yeah, rock on.’

Heh, well AIDs is the most known example, but there’s definitely other crap floating around that we could contract from an animal if we were to sax it up with one. I mean, I’m fairly sure, I don’t know of any actual research on this but I’m assuming it’d be similar to being bitten by an animal or something.

‘Not to absolve the Church, because they are frankly wrong in that regard, but homophobia is neither exclusive to them nor did it begin with them. Holding the Church responsible for what is a flaw in humanity in general isn't quite right.’

Huh, while that’s definitely true, as other cultures and societies are anti-homosexual as well, the Romans were the pinnacle of civilization way back then, not to mention the most powerful force on the planet, and they openly embraced homosexuality. While we can obviously never be certain, I gotta believe that if the Church hadn’t been so adamant about changing that, the way the world viewed homosexuals today would be completely different.

‘The Catholic Church does impose alot of arbitrary rules, eh?

...that's all I got.’

Haha it’s coo, I was just ranting there anyway.

“What in the hell makes you think God wants us to go around shooting abortion doctors? In your analogy, you say one of the man that shot the abortion doctor loved God. This very sentence contradicts itself: The man who murders three of God's children very clearly does not respect God's love and is in fact no better than the people he is murdering.”

So then you’re saying, regardless of the fact that the man who shot the abortion doctor claimed he loved God, he actually didn’t? So, he’s no better off than the man who shoots the abortion doctor and doesn’t love God? As if to say... our fate is based on our actions, not on our beliefs? = O Once again, you are arguing with me about something we’re in agreement on.

“Yet, gay people are absolutely exempt from having any character flaws whatsoever. If you must know my justification, let's talk about real people. How about... Achooie? How worried were you when you heard he almost got his gf pregnant? You were saying the same damn things I'm saying now, that the kid would either get killed, or have to be sent away somewhere. And honestly, how many young people are ready for a child at senior year of high school? It's not fair for the parents, too, who have to grow up twice as fast and skip things like college.”

Why do you bring up this illogical statement that gay people are exempt from having character flaws? O_o We’re not even discussing homosexuality in this segment, but rather teen pregnancies. And that said, Achooie may have been too young to be a father, but he still would’ve been a significantly better father than half of the people raising kids in the USA today. Does that mean they shouldn’t have kids? No. You seem to be arguing that the basis for whether or not a couple deserves children is dependant on the value of their ability to properly raise the kid, and then you insist that this value is immediately dependent on age.

The truth is, the Church doesn’t have this law against pre-marital sex because they’re worried about young kids not being able to raise it... because the law isn’t about age. It’s about pre marriage. Two people in their 40s, who have several million dollars between the two of them, are very committed, and have all the means and ability to perfectly raise a handful of children, by Church doctrine are NOT allowed to do so until marriage? Why? = O Because being married in the Catholic church seals people in. It’s the same reason the Church wants you to baptise your children when they’re infants. The reasoning they give is “well, if this baby dies and he isn’t baptised, he can’t go to heaven.” Pssh. Like God’s gonna punish a baby who had no control over his fate cause he didn’t get some water sprinkled on his head? No, it’s another method of securing people – now that baby’s a Christian. And when two people have to get married before it’s alright for them to have sex, it’s for the same reason.

“That's the point. Can you honestly say you would expect God to tell you that He has no problem with humans just using His gift to humanity for physical pleasure? Get real. If God really truly wanted us to just have sex for the hell of it, we'd reproduce in some other manner and sex would just be for fun. Who knows? Maybe humans DID have something like that but it faded away with evolution because there was no real purpose or it as far as keeping the individual alive.”

So uh, should I not use my ears to hear music? After all, it’s God’s gift, right? My ears, they’re God’s gift. However, listening to music does not result in children! Rather, it’s just another form of physical pleasure, the same as sex. As Upsi pointed out above, God giving people this wonderful sensation and then expecting them to only use it under specific circumstances isn’t logical. And there are a plethora of other potential physical avenues we can explore, unrelated to sex and reproduction, that the Catholic Church does not forbid (i.e., music).

And no, if God ‘wanted us to have sex for the hell of it’ or not, the fact that it’s the pinnacle of pleasure is necessary in sustaining the species. What if sex hurt and made you throw up? The majority of life-forms would’ve died out a while ago. They’d have no incentive, no reason. Sex feels the way it feels cause of an evolutionary necessity to tie the succession of our species with an experience impossible to replicate or substitute with anything else.
“What's the difference between video games, sports, etc, and sex? The difference is that humans made all the "pointless" activities as you deem them, and God gave us sex. The two should hardly be compared to each other in such a way.”

Haha, so God didn’t give me hands, eh? Nor did he give me my brain, eyes, ears? The ability to tie all these sensory functions together and associate them with a single task – playing video games? God didn’t do that for me, huh? That’s what you’re saying? : P

You believe in an omnipotent, all-knowing God. That means that, under your belief, everything that exists God knew about, before it existed. He, according to you, made all of us and everything, and put the world together in such a way that it would come to this point. How can you, under the values you’ve laid forth in this thread, ~not~ believe that God was instrumental in the existence of video games, sports, and anything/everything else we experience?

“Could you elaborate on that? I'm really not sure what or when you're talking about.”

Back in the days of Christian persecution, there were not enough followers to afford homosexuality. Christians were being killed all over the place, and as such the Church did everything in their power to ensure that as many people as possible would be popping out babies.

“I can't honestly believe you used the spread of AIDS to defend homosexuals. Enough said.”

‘Enough said’ as in it’s the homosexual’s fault? Tell me, when two homosexuals who are virgins have sex, will they magically create the AIDS virus inside of them? No. When two heterosexuals have sex, will any STDs magically arise in them? No. The acts themselves, assuming the hosts are pure, have no negative side effects. The other ‘bad things’ in Leviticus, such as incest and bestiality, have visible and tangible bad side effects. Incest will result in a baby genetically prone to much higher levels of retardation. Bestiality can result in the contraction of a disease completely foreign to humanity. As JK pointed out, it’s just a rumor that AIDs came from a monkey. Still, there are a significant amount of diseases (mad cow disease, the bird flu, etc) that we can get from animals that just kind of exist in animals without hurting them. So having sex with an animal is objectively bad, because it can result in the contraction of a foreign virus. Having sex with a relative is objectively bad, because it can result in retarded offspring. However, having sex with a man is not objectively, intrinsically bad in any way, at all.

“I didn't say "how they viewed" them, I said the laws against marriage. And don't say the world, because Christianity doesn't have THAT huge of an impact on the globe, and there are other religions that don't believe homosexuality is right either.”

Christianity doesn’t have a big impact on the world? Mmmmmm, would you care to rescind that statement?

“The time of the Jews was before these people, and they had already received the list from Leviticus I had mentioned earlier at this time. But, you may have a point about one reason homosexuality was viewed in a negative light, and that may be it's connections to paganism IE Romans, Greeks.”

So then you validate what I’m saying (once again) – Without Christian intercession, homosexuality was quite alright to the cultured people of the time. It was this list of Leviticus, that had existed even before the Greeks, which carried around the message of homosexuality being evil.

“Hello? Chiz! Can you hear me? Can you hear me all the way up there on your high horse? You can? Oh, good, just checking. You don't have nearly enough of the spiritual connection a priest has. You haven't sacrificed things normal humans take for granted to recieve that kind of bonding with God. So do you really think you could just go to God and be like "sorry bout all that money I stole, dawg." I don't, but hey, give it a shot.”

So where’s this mysterious checklist of things you need to do to get close to God, huh? It sounds pretty interesting, but I’ve never really heard of it before. I know there are certain rites that people use to become priests, bishops, etc... but that was all created by humans. So what? What if God doesn’t give a crap? Just because the Church says “If you become a priest by doing a, b, and c, you are closer to God!” that doesn’t make it true. What if the Church said “standing on your head makes you closer to God.”? That’s pretty much what they’re doing. Sure, there’s a logic behind it, but it’s a logic based on their own rules (like, priests abstaining from sex, which appa

Also, even if priests are correct and are bonding with God, there’s still this suggestion that God is incapable of forgiving human sins without someone who’s close to him. Which is silly and erroneous according to everything that’s believed about him.

“Actually, the Church mantains this rule as "you shouldn't eat an hour before receiving communion, because of the host entering your body. They don't want it to be mixed in with Doritos and crap, I don't know. It's the same thing with not having any mortal sins on you when you go to Church, or not letting a host fall on the floor.”

...The church does realize that you’ll eventually be crapping the host out, right? Flushing it down the toilet, and all that stuff? Honestly, here’s a question – when does it stop becoming a ritual, and start becoming a false idol? “Oh, no, don’t let it touch the floor, it’s sacred!” What the hell? I’m pretty sure right in the ten commandments it says “no other gods before me, plzkthnx”, yet we revere these hosts so highly. It’s quite ridiculous. And also pretty backwards.

“Most of your arguements just seem to be you rejecting the Church's ideals for the hell of it.”

You do realize that these are my beliefs, right? I’m not just arguing because I feel like being a #@$% or something, this is honestly what I believe in. It’s not ‘for the hell of it’, this is what makes the most sense to me.

Newai, lovin this thread. It’s been a while since we had a nice discussion.
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[quote="Someone's sig on the AoC forums"]THis game really is more geared towards the adult then, teenbeat wow. This mmo makes u think, somthing a teenager hates to do. -Skopas, eloquently discussing how grown up AoC is.

No read comprehension is not your strong point so I'll you a picture for you. -ubeenhad, just before he a picture for me[/quote]

[quote="Wormy"]I wish I could supply, as everyone else as, good news regarding my love life but sadly not as I am currently shagging a fat girl until I find someone better. [/quote]

[Izzhov]

[JK9000]

Yes. Also no. SIMULTANEOUSLY. And also neither.


That''s just how God rolls, yo. Paradoxes are a purely mortal convention.

Huh wow, really? So doesn’t that mean that Lucifer didn’t have a choice as far as being evil, it was always planned for him? Dude, that’s kinda lame.


There are certain texts of the Bible one could interperet as Satan being in God's employ, actually. And, if you think about it, it kinda makes sense. (to me, anyway)

I don't really think of Satan as 'evil', per se. His name means "Enemy", but that doesn't mean evil. He's just, you know, the other side. If our choices were 'God' and 'God', we really wouldn't have free will, would we? It nessecitates that there must be a 'Not God' alternative. Ergo, the fallen morning star.

Dude, you ever read Paradise Lost? It's a poem by a pretty devout Christian that somewhat paints Lucifer and his fall in a sympathetic light, yet also conveys that such a fall doesn't betray God's omnipotence and planning. It's also a good reas if you just want to go through it as a fantasy story devoid of any religious subtext.

[Tommy]

[Shadow Blade]

Damian, you can't say that religion shouldn't effect our morals etc. That's kinda....what our religion is about. And isn't making up your own morals...the same as making up your own rules? Or at least close? I'mean, sure, you could set up a government that enforces a certain set of laws/morals/whateveryouwanttocallthem, but without a good religion to base the rules off of, well, look at communism.

@[everything chiz sad against the Catholic Church], that's why I never really liked them. I'm sure they've probably got 75% of their doctrine made up/adopted from paganism. "No other Gods before me" Well, they have Mary. "No graven images (idols)" They have statues of Jesus/Mary. I'm sure I could think of more if I was to concentrate my mind on it.

And, I'll say this again, I don't think God would have "Temporary" Laws (ie: no gay marriage). I'mean, if it was wrong then, I think it would be wrong now. Think about if suddenly every man in the world became gay. Bye bye Humanity.

Birth Control/Abortion: If you didn't want to have a baby, maybe you shouldn't have had sex in the first place! God gave us sex so that we could have children, and he made it feel good so that we would want to do it. It should never be abused. With everything good, there is a price to pay, and in this case, it would be creating a baby, which isn't really a bad thing. I have a baby brother and he's just.. so.. cute <3. Also: think about if you were aborted. Even adoption is better than abortion.

Also: just incase people are still thinking that science disproves Christianity or vice-versa, it doesn't. Now if evolution were true, than it would disprove Christianity, but since there's no proof of evolution, it doesn't.

Also: Reasons why I'm a Christian:

1) It gives me hope of a really good afterlife, I wouldn't have to live this boring life over again, and I wouldn't just be gone like in some other religions (atheism included here).

2) "I just find Christianity to hard to believe" Well you know what? I find it A LOT easier to believe than evolution. Everything in there is based off of millions of chances with loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong odds that all just "happened" to line up perfectly.

3) Without God, there really is no meaning of life.

4) [I'll think of this one later ]


Oh, and I have to say that I agree with Tommy almost completely.

Also: I'll say this again. God's Law should make the society, not society making the law.
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http://gadgettr.deviantart.com/

[Irishmaestro]

[Izzhov]

[Shadow Blade]

[Upsilon]

Watch as I waltz across the thread's last two pages, picking and choosing fights like a drunken philosopher at an all-you-can-eat meta-buffet.

[Damian]

Okay yeah I'm with Izzhov on this one, I'm pretty much staunchly against everything you just said. I do feel the need to address this:

[notable edit: see bottom of the post for a bit more clarification via Upsi's post. I'm not bothering to edit this text which I wrote as I read stuff, so if there's any discrepancies don't hurt me too badly.]

[The Kroc]

Beautiful answers there, Upsi.

Abortion...abortion is necessary in some cases. If the parents KNOW they don't have enough money to raise a baby (or can't be bothered), then why let it be born? It'll just cause the kid to have a horrible childhood which will haunt him throughout his life. There is no point.

And the thing about this life being boring...that's a bit extreme, really. I mean, you're right, this life CAN be pretty damn nasty when it wants to, but just hoping for an afterlife and not giving this life too much importance...will just cause you a lot of pain all through your life. Well, maybe I'm just missing the point, because I haven't read the whole post this quote is taken from...but, you know, even if there IS an afterlife, why not try and enjoy THIS life too? Two awesome lives for the price of one!
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This Deep Well

[Izzhov]

Upsilon, I agree with everything you said. Even the part where you rebutted my argument. You've convinced me that, inasmuch as an ordinary social situation is concerned, it's not okay to talk about politics or religion, because it's insulting. I wasn't very convinced on that point in the first place anyway.
Also, I agree with The Kroc.
I also agree with Damian on most of what he said, but I've already talked about why I disagree with him on certain points.
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